Outlawing Fags [Archive] - GayCork.com

NuMarvel

31st August 2003, 05:40 PM

I'm in favour of the smoking ban. We have to remember as well that this ban is a ban on smoking in ALL workplaces. The company I work for, already have a ban on smoking in the office, although at the moment, they turn a blind eye to people nipping out the back for a quick one.

I usually avoid pubs because of the smokey atmosphere and I tolerate it in clubs. If you wanna smoke, go right ahead, but I don't see why I'm also put at a health risk as well as going home reeking of cigarette smoke. Invent a cigarette that is odourless and healthy and i won't have a problem.

As for this being part of a big brother society, I don't think that's why this is being introduced. The government spends millions on treating smoking related diseases every year and faces action for not doing anything to adequately protect the health of bar and restaurant workers. This is probably their way of closing the loop. It may seem draconian, but I think it needs to be done.

About the part where it is illegal to serve someone when they are drunk (very vague term there!), I know that something similar operates in Australia. Would be interesting to see what conqsequences it had there.

LeBaron

31st August 2003, 05:46 PM

Hi Nu..... I accept your point on the health issue, but surely what
makes us unique is the gift of free choice... why not allow the bar
to elect to be smoking or non smoking and then customers and staff
alike could exercise thier choice if they want to be there ?

On the Aussie thing, I have been there and I have never seen so many
drunks per square foot in Aussie bars, so that is one law that is
being ignored... that may well be what happens here with the smoking
ban

NuMarvel

31st August 2003, 06:07 PM

Okay I haven't completely thought this one through, so if there are some gapiing holes in my logic, feel free to point them out, just be nice about it -)

If you offered a choice to owners as to whether or not their premises was smoking or non, then most would choose smoking. Current practice would back me up on this becuase we see that most non smokers do go to smoking pubs. If a pub to choose to be non smoking in a town/location where 5 other pubs (for example) are smoking then it's gonna go out of business (This happened to a pub in Galway I hear). Also as well, the Mandate trade union (who represent workers in this business) are behind the smoking ban which suggests to me that most bar and resturant workers would prefer to work in non smoking environments. If most pub owners would want smoking pubs, where as most pub workers would prefer non smoking (again both of these are based on my suppositions above) then something's gonna give. Either pub owners can't find workers (in this economy i find that unlikely) or workers work in an environment they are not comfortable with (i.e. health wise)

Proud Mary 1980

31st August 2003, 07:42 PM

I have mixed thoughts on the smoking ban, I disagree with a total ban in pubs, if there was better smoke extracters pubs wouldn't be half as smoky. I agree the ban should stick to clubs, eating houses, cinemas etc, where childeren are.

odyssey_scot

1st September 2003, 01:40 AM

aye, ban should maybe apply to pubs before a certain time of night? i.e. when people are in for a bit of food, or when kids are around.

cinemas, restaurants, etc, I agree should ban smoking. but pubs, theyre a different thing, you go to a pub to put this poison into your stomach, in the form of alkyhol, and put a tar-based smoke into your lungs. its destructive, but thats the joy of going out! lol...

Bootyzilla

1st September 2003, 05:03 AM

I'm a heavy smoker, and I ADORE smoking. I do not want to quit on any level, be it health-wise, financial etc. I am fully aware that I'm an addict of sorts but cigarettes, to me, are too damn good to do without. I am SO FUCKING TIRED of feeling like I have to apologise for my cigarettes!!!!!

I should say, before I go on, that I fully support banning smoking in public places like restaurents. cinemas etc, anywhere where there are children, pregnant women, asthmatics etc., areas where people whop have issues with cigarette smoke can and do congregate.

However!

We live in Ireland, a nation that loves its drink, fatty foods, recreational drug use, unsafe sex, etc etc. Taxing and 'banning' cigarettes and alcohol and maintaining an outdated stance on drug use isn't going to help. The past ten years have proven that. It's the country's, the society's attitude that needs to change, not where and when we can indulge and how much it costs, or might cost, us to do so.

Why not educate the masses instead of prohibiting them and taking the goddamn moral high ground, like so many Charles Haugheys in disgusting grey suits on Oireachteas Report? Our Government earns huge amounts of revenue from VAT on cigs & booze, but woe betide the TD who admits it. Teenage pregnancy is still a huge problem, and abortion is still not an option, much less a state-sanctioned syllabus for sex and sociological education. You can't mention drugs here and still be taken seriously. (I don't, but for those that do, I'm sure they are as tired of having to feel guilty for a goddamn joint as I am for having a fag).

I was in New York two years ago, on a holiday. Lovely place. America, so naturally not big on smoking, but many of the restaurents I went to had properly ventilated, totally enclosed rooms for smokers, and the same for the non-smokers, so everyone was happy. Would that be so hard to achieve? Can't we all just get along?

(Gets down off soapbox, lights a cigarette, blows rings of sheer unadulterated joy into Micheal PigF*cker Martin's stupid face)

gaijin

1st September 2003, 06:44 AM

I think its a good idea.. great lets be able to go out and not come home stinking of smoke - but then is that being selfish of me? I have given up smoking but should we stop smokers outright enjoying their pint and smoke?
Has Ireland really just become the nanny state when it comes to legislation?
I do think that it will be hard to inforce, but even if it is really inforced is this not going to lead to more street brawls - the big problem that is also being highlighted at the moment. Will the publicans be responsible for the people who are outside having a quick ciggie? then think of the poor bouncers trying to throw all the people out just for lighting up. Where does it all stop?
It is really a problem at home - who here would ever walk down the street sober and alone at say 2am in Cork? I dont mean its only a problem for gay people irish cities are extreemly unsafe its quite scary. Here I can walk around at any time of the day or night even in areas that are not that well lit up without fear. So if the smoking ban is inforced will it make our cities even worse than they are? I dont know if the irish govenment really thought this through... but well then do they ever??

Ok sorry rant over!!

LeBaron

1st September 2003, 10:23 AM

One of the nice things that I have come across, and you see it a lot
in the UK, is a little sign on tables in Pubs and Hotels which tells
you if you are in a smoking or non-smoking area, with the
Ying & Yang symbol on it and a few words reminding of the virtue
of tolerance of other peoples opinions.
Unfortunatly a total ban rejects this virtue and anything that
encourages intolerance cannot be " Healthy "

Fully agree with all the comments re Eateries, Cinemas etc, but
in this age of technology sureley we can equip the bars with
extractors so that tolerance can continue to exist in the place
that, like it or not, is at the core of social interaction in
this green land

kevSaMo

1st September 2003, 06:32 PM

quoteOriginally posted by Bootyzilla

I was in New York two years ago, on a holiday. Lovely place. America, so naturally not big on smoking, but many of the restaurents I went to had properly ventilated, totally enclosed rooms for smokers, and the same for the non-smokers, so everyone was happy. Would that be so hard to achieve? Can't we all just get along?

(Gets down off soapbox, lights a cigarette, blows rings of sheer unadulterated joy into Micheal PigF*cker Martin's stupid face)

As of January 1 this year, there is a total ban on smoking in New York in all public buildings (bars, restaurants, clubs etc. etc..)
(California and New York are the two most populous states in America, and considered to be the two most liberal.)

It is inevitable that this will happen everywhere sooner or later.
As a smoker, who are we trying to kid?
The damn things are killing us and others.

It has come to the stage where the health costs to governments are outweighing the revenues earned from taxes.
Once it becomes a money loser instead of a money maker, it's time to call a halt.
I wish they would outlaw them all together and close down the cigarette companies. It's probably the only way I could quit!!

[)]
k

capo

1st September 2003, 06:59 PM

You are absolutely correct KevSaMo - and taken in isolation no sensible person could disagree. However since this government had taken over the number of restrictive laws and taxes, both implemented and proposed is immense.

Plastic Bag tax
Points on your license for not wearing a seat belt
Chewing gum tax
Fat food tax
Ban on being drunk (define that)
Ban on drinking on the street
Ban on smoking in bars
Ban on Guards talking to journalists

From being a laissez faire (sp ?), laid back culture we are swiflty heading towards the Singapore like nanny state that I would personally despise. I am a libertarian and believe stongly in a community tolerence.

I drive a motor bike and always wear a helmet. I don't think there should be a law forcing me to do it though. That is not the role of the government.

And all these laws from a crowd of f?%&ing crooks !!! Makes my blood boil.

LeBaron

1st September 2003, 06:59 PM

I seem to recall a really black story about a year ago ( and I cannot
vouch for whose propaganda machine it came out of ) that in fact if
we all stoped smoking the result would be financial ruin for most
Governments as the cost of health care to support an increasingly
older age profile would be massive.
Then again that would not bother the bould Michael M as he and his
buddies are spending precious little on healthcare anyway !

LeBaron

1st September 2003, 07:06 PM

Hey Capo..... Good points and the last one the best of all !
The only law that these guys are talking about loosening is
( and I know some of you will not believe this ) the restriction
on corporate donations to political parties.
Ah, Charlie, you are still with us !

Bootyzilla

1st September 2003, 08:15 PM

KevSaMo, you say that the only way you could quit is if the Government outlawed cigarettes and closed the companies down. If that's the case then do you really, really want to quit? I know you're probably kidding but so many people have raised the point that a ban in pubs will help them to quit smoking but I think that's crap. We'll still smoke at home, in our cars, out the back at work, on the streets... we may cut down the amount we have on a night out in a pub but it's not going to help us quit smoking. Surely that comes from enough willpower out of the desire to stop?

Capo makes some excellent points, I cannot understand why the Irish government feels the need to superficially emulate the American attitude when it comes to healthcare. Chip on Shoulder syndrome, perhaps?

Besides, I can't see the ban taking any kind of official effect. Ireland loves her potatoes, and her cigarettes. Reintroduce Lady lavery on the five euro note, complete with harp and ashtray -)

Bootyzilla

1st September 2003, 08:25 PM

Also, these bans and taxes belie an infinitely more worrying attitude of the Irish Government - the Big Brother notion of 'Oh, the public couldn't possibly know what's good and bad for them. Why, they must think cigarettes prevent indigestion and deodorise the home! Fatty foods are probably objects d'art to the Irish consumer! Alcohol increases the libido and intelligence! Let's make them unaffordable and illegal and lo, we shall have control and sanitation!. '. (I know nobody's actually written that in a white paper or anything, but still) I get the feeling that we are being given fewer and fewer freedoms and more and more restrictions.

Why not tax the fatties extra for wear and tear on hospital beds? That'll get them thin! Charge people who have more than the legal limit of alcohol on till receipts at the checkout in Tescos! That'll stop them throwing dinner parties! Tax old people and housebound people for using more electricity when they watch more television than the rest of the country! Then they'll be even more bored! Yay! It's a great country to live in, isn't it? Pass me the shamrock. I'm so proud right now....

Slayer

1st September 2003, 10:52 PM

You know what, I agree with the fat food tax, I agree with the smoking ban, I agree with the tougher laws about drink.

People do not realise, this country is going to hell in a handbasket.

People are being attacked and beaten on the street by yobs who are completely pissed.

you can't go out without being harassed by some locked eejit who thinks he's in with a chance.

Smoking is killing and putting in place the means to kill thousands of people a year.
This is not just a terrible loss of life, it has huge implications for our health system. A health system that is already fucked up as it is.

This is something that is also affected by an increasingly lazy and overweight nation.
Walk into a housing estate, down a terrace, and you will see these massively obese children struggling for breath as their thinner and healthier counterparts kick a ball around.

Or, as is more likely, you'll children locked in their houses in front of a playstation.
I know we shouldn't make children preoccupied with their weight, but you have to be practical and worry about their hearts.

Fat children become fat teenagers, who more often than not become fat adults.

It is clinically proven that being overweight can lead to coronary heart disease, certain types of cancers, high blood pressure, diabetes.
The list could go on.

All these fat unhealthy people will cripple our health system, which already has enough problems.

I agree with anything that will reduce obesity and cancers, and lets face it, humans are a greedy bunch and the only measures that work are the ones that hit them where it hurts- their pockets.

Our country is going to shit, something has to be done, and this smoking ban and anti drink measures are about the only good thing this government has proposed.

Less drinking will mean less crime. Lets face facts here.

Maybe it's turning into big brother state, but fucking hell, I'll feel a whole lot safer in a country that has zero tolerance to crime, and general trouble causing.
There has to be a reason why a country like china has three times the population of America but one tenth the crime rate, why a woman in singapore can walk down a dark lane at 1 o clock in the morning without worrying about being raped or murdered.

This smoking ban will save lives! This isn't about discriminating or (and i consider this laughable) "destroying" the "irish way". This isn' about stamping out craic agus ceol in irish pubs.It's about keeping the irish nation healthy.

And to be honest, if the Irish way involves thousands of people dying of lung cancer, heart disease and liver poisoning every year, and people being attacked on the streets of their own city, by clowns with too much drink in them and too much time on their hands, christ, we should be glad it's being stamped out.

I'd be proud to live in any country where I feel safe and where people are healthy and happy to enjoy themselves without getting completely out of it.

odyssey_scot

2nd September 2003, 02:38 AM

Grand arguement, but there's such a thing as freedom too ya know. I'm loathe to be referring to Orwell, but hell...here goes
If they start clamping down this strictly on people, then its just a totalitarian society, telling us to do stuff, or not do stuff, like kids..
Will they want to tell us how to wipe our asses soon? Put cameras around make sure we're doing it properly? lol

Sure, people are dying of lung cancer, and they're dying of skin cancer too cos they keep getting themselves burned in the sun, you can tell people what to do (how long have we been told to use suncream? and then half of feckin ireland gets burnt when there's sun), but you can't MAKE them do it.

Sure, I can see why there has to be something done about the drink problem in Ireland, but thats cos it affects everything, I mean it spills over into every facet of life.
But banning smokin in pubs is just going a step too bloody far. Next they'll try banning Coca Cola cos it contains phosphoric acid...you know what I mean? You can go too far with somethings..

Bootyzilla

2nd September 2003, 03:28 AM

I agree with Tank Girl.

Slayer, you make some excellent points about crime and alcohol, but I can't imagine the nightmare scenario where we have to be allowed to do certain things that came naturally to us before. I agree with zero tolerance towards alcohol and drug-related crimes, that's what will get the crime rates down. Look at how well the penalty points system has worked so far. But banning being drunk and banning overeating and banning smoking... the common problem here is the word Banning. If you ban something it becomes more desirable. That's human nature too.

Wouldn't the simplest solution (bar, obviously, investing in a programme of education and information instead of prohibition) be to have certain times when smoking can happen in pubs, coupled with proper ventilation and actual separate smoking zones?

Also, spare a thought for the Publican. A Private businessman like a Publican should have the right to decide whether or not his patrons can or cannot smoke, just as much as his patrons have the right to choose whether to be in a smoking or a non-smoking public house. It's that simple.

gaijin

2nd September 2003, 03:31 AM

That is fair enough Slayer... I do agree with you on some points and essentialy the smoking ban would be good but i dont feel we are ready for it yet. introducing the smoking ban at the moment and enforcing it will increase street violence - this is if it is inforced. Think about it people outside on the street smoking and all of them pissed off already caus they have to go out in the wet and cold. There is no doubt that this will increase the violence. The Irish govenment is trying to get the nation to stop smoking and drinking all at once - lets face it the Irish are a nation of drinkers, and it takes time to change peoples opinions. Thats where I feel the focus should be. Ireland from my experience is majoritly anti-smoking when compared to the rest of Europe... but still why not try a compermise and then work from there?
There is no way that I would like Ireland to become like Singapore.. that woman might feel safe in walking down the street and not fear getting raped, but she has no freedom of speech. Do we really want to go back to that where being homosexual in illegal? I know a bit off the smoking point but you see what I am betting at? There has to be a happy meduim found... you must start somewhere and try to get peoples attitudes to change then maybe in 2 years (as the vinters association of Ireland suggested) review the situation after creating half and half bars and see if you can then introduce the smoking ban.
As I said ultimatly Im not against the ban in itself but think we need to look at what the ban now would bring with it.

LeBaron

2nd September 2003, 11:32 AM

Sorry Slayer, whilst I am very open to a lot of your points I have to
agree with Gaijin & Tank Girl that the loss of freedom and free choice
that is creeping in is unacceptable.
Just to give you some information on China & Singapore ( both of
which I am sure are healty, well run, smoke & gum free countries )
China ; "In April, 2001, homosexuality was deleted from the Chinese Classification of Mental Disorders" mind you its still technicaly illegal - not mad but bad as it were.
Singapore "Homosexual activity between consenting adults is illegal in Singapore"

What price smoke free pubs ?

Slayer

2nd September 2003, 09:40 PM

Well, I'm not looking to Singapore and China for their record on sexual freedom, woman's rights.

But as for the publican, if every bar is non smoking, then businesss will not be affected.

Irish peoople like their drink too much not to go out.

A compromise will not work. Not in this society. It's all or nothing.

Proper ventilation has been tried, but smoke lingers in the air for days, even weeks.

Ireland will never be ready for a smoking ban, it does not matter when it was introduced, so why not now?

I, as a non smoker, have the right to celebrate without worrying about my health because of a smoker sitting next to me.

I have to right to not have my eczema flare up every time I leave a club because the smoke irritates it.

To be honest, I believe you lose an rights of freedom when what you seek freedom to do damages other people.

California, New York, New Brunswick in Canada, plus others, have implemented this ban, with little or no after math(of course there are certain groups scaremongering and embellishing facts).

We need this ban.

No, we can't control everything that people do. But I do believe this is one thing that we can, and one thing that we as a society have a right to control, as it affects our present and our future.

LeBaron

2nd September 2003, 11:41 PM

The word that springs to mind is Intolerance

Disco_Kev

3rd September 2003, 12:27 PM

quoteOriginally posted by Slayer

Irish peoople like their drink too much not to go out.

A compromise will not work. Not in this society. It's all or nothing.

Proper ventilation has been tried, but smoke lingers in the air for days, even weeks.

You made some good points there Slayer. Speaking as a non-smoker myself, all this talk about ventilation as a compromise is such bullshit. It would never work.

I am worried about the way the government is behaving. All this "Nanny State" stuff is getting on my nerves. But, it still makes my blood boil when I hear smokers talking about their right to smoke. Their right to take out their suicidal tendencies on any innocent bystanders. What about my right to only poison myself if I want. I do drink and am aware of the dangers of that, but I don't want to fuck up my lungs. I have a choice to go to a pub and not drink, but i have no choice when it comes to smoking.

This is all very well on paper. I am worried about enforcement. As far as I know it is down to the Environmental Health Officers to enforce this, but there are only a few hundred of these guys to cover the State (as far as I know).

I'll admit if it was any other aspect of life that was being controlled like this I would react differently. I have always be soooo detested being a smoker by proxy when I go out.

*Rant off* [[-(]

damien

3rd September 2003, 02:20 PM

Just give some pubs "smoking" licenses. License the smoking the way they license coffee shops in Amsterdam. People have a choice whether to go into smoking establishments or not after that.

Oh and this was my last post on GayCork for a while. Bye all, its been fun.

LeBaron

3rd September 2003, 02:40 PM

Bye Damien, Whereever you are going have fun

NuMarvel

3rd September 2003, 03:27 PM

Just want to pick up on something that Salyer mentioned yesterday

But as for the publican, if every bar is non smoking, then businesss will not be affected

I don't think that's necessarily true but it did make me think of something. Are publicans going about this wrong way? They say they'll lose business because they feel everyone will just drink them selves silly at home.

Here's an idea to publicans - give us a reason to leave the home. You have new competition new (i.e. the option of staying at home). Let's see what you can come up with....

As an aside there's a piece in today's Examiner about a pub that has been banning smoking because the owner's medical condition was worsened by the smoke (he's 70 years old or something like that). They've been doing this for the last two years and they say business hasn't been hurt a bit... Admittedly this is the same pub that doesn't allow women past its doors but nobody's perfect!

redbulljunkie

3rd September 2003, 03:42 PM

It is extremely annoying walking into a smoky bar wearing contact lenses.

Slayer

3rd September 2003, 09:32 PM

Anyone ever been to Fellini's on Carey's Lane?

It's a completely non smoking cafe.

Everytime I go in there, or pass it, it's jointed.

Why?
Because the food is good and the service is efficient.

LeBaron

6th September 2003, 01:44 PM

Food is good, but the main reason it always seem jointed is that it is so small )

NuMarvel

6th September 2003, 04:29 PM

Saw an article in the examiner today (why do most of my posts start like that??) about how cigarette manufacurers Philip Morris have admitted that there is atill a high chance of second hand smoking in ventialted premises.

Here's a link to their website

http//www.pmusa.com/health_issues/secondhand_smoke.asp

LeBaron

6th September 2003, 04:41 PM

Hey Nu.... We cannot beleive ANYTHING Philip Morris say after all its a fact that they have been lying to us for years !

RubberBoy

7th September 2003, 04:44 PM

Nanny state my arse!

Will you listen to yourself, what you are proposing is that cigarette corporations be allowed to make vast profits by knowingly developing and selling highly addictive and deadly substances.

The state picks up the tab at the end of the day for the health care costs of this industry as well as the cost in terms of lost productivity. Those costs are the same if it’s the active smoker or a passive smoker. We the taxpayers are to a large extent subsidise the profits of this industry. Who is being the nanny for who?

Smoking tobacco contributes nothing positive to this world, if we could turn back the clock to the past, most sane people would try and stop the comericalzation and wide spread promotion and sale of tobacco.

Just look at some of the information that has come into the public domain from the court cases in the US, which where fought against by the companies by legal and illegal means and finally only won when some industry insiders blew the whistle on the companies business practises. Which included

Full awareness of the health effects of smoking both Passive and Active

Developing more addictive products (brands that contain more “freebase” nicotine)

As sales dropped in First world, dumping product below cost in Africa and Asia to develop a new customer base

Adding additives to cigarettes that would keep them alight longer when left down untouched in an ashtray so people smoke more, this also means they cause more house fires. Evidence from the US court cases now show the companies had crunched the numbers on how much more money they would make on this compared to how many would likely die as a result of fires caused by these additives and surprise surprise they took the money.

Tobacco companies have a long history in the US of funding the republican and other right wing parties and campaigns as well as anti-gay iniativies

Every single move the companies have made to reduce Tar, add health warning for pregnant women, include general health warning, acknowledge there product is addictive and stop aiming there their products at children. All have been achieved by hard fought legal battles and public pressure and in parts of the world where those cases have not been taken the companies will sell their product without the same health warnings as they use in Europe and the States.

They use scary tactics to try and stop us from taking steps to protect ourselves, we have all heard that there will be job losses in the pub trade if the bill goes through in January but in San Francisco and New York since they introduced similar laws, bar and restaurants employment has gone up, who’s fooling who.

We except that the state has the right and duty to protect it’s citizens with laws that limit fire arms, stop drink driving, wearing seatbelts and loads more all that this law does is stop peoples smoke harming other people.

People this is not Prohabation it’s just a ban on smoking in the workplace (pubs are peoples workplaces to) most of us work in non-smoking enviorments and are quite happy to, what’s the story do we only beilive in that right if you don’t happen to work in a pub?

Tobacco companies are on the same ethical level if not worse then arms dealers.

If they had to pay for the real cost of their products they would cease to exist, they not only survive but earn vast fortunes because countries all around the world pick up the tab for the harm they cause. If there is any “Nanny” around here it’s us looking after tobacco industries shareholders.

LeBaron

7th September 2003, 05:16 PM

Fair 'nuff....
Dont see them banning the Arms Trade 'tho

NuMarvel

7th September 2003, 05:39 PM

Nobody was ever in any doubt that the Arms Trade is not a good thing. Every one is well aware that weapons kill however, weapons ain't addictive (to most people anyway)...

The long and short of this is that smoking is harmful to people's health. Not only to the smoker's health but to those around them as well. Pubic health officials across the world have stated this time and again and finally we have tobacco companies coming to the realisation that it's becoming an up hill battle.

Ban them & burn them I say! (The cigarettes that is)

skysabove

7th September 2003, 09:10 PM

What's so great about cigarettes, anyway? They taste disgusting, and make your breath stink. I never saw the attraction.

LeBaron

11th September 2003, 06:18 PM

Hi all.... I think this thread has probably run out of wind )
Seems the non-smokers have it, I'll just have to move to Dublin, get
my free Dublin Corpo outside ashtray, and skulk around the streets.

Thanks all for your views

redbulljunkie

11th September 2003, 06:37 PM

quoteOriginally posted by bill
What's so great about cigarettes, anyway? They taste disgusting, and make your breath stink. I never saw the attraction.

It's not attraction it's addiction. People tend to start smoking in the first place as an image thing anyway. Like in the 50s when smoking was supposed to make you look sophisticated (and according to the tobacco companies good for you), and these days teenagers think it makes you look cool.

LeBaron

11th September 2003, 07:30 PM

Hey Tank Girl.... I just heard the most gruesome example of the Nanny State on de News..... At de Driving Test they are now going to test us
on our knowledge of how to change de oil in de car !
I ask you, that means most queers will be walking for life !

We just SO do not do oil , unless its on a beach !

Whatever next !

Slayer

11th September 2003, 10:38 PM

Oh no.... NOT PEOPLE LEARNING HOW TO CHECK THE OIL IN THEIR CAR!!

*faints*

redbulljunkie

12th September 2003, 11:25 AM

Dear god, first people knowing how to change the oil in their car then what? Regular safety checks on cars? Orwell was right [o]

I'll probably be walking for life anyway (as long as I'm living in ireland).

LeBaron

12th September 2003, 01:35 PM

The possibility of compulsory insurance looms !

odyssey_scot

12th September 2003, 02:32 PM

oil?
what oil?
is there oil in cars?
lol

I'm so sick of being told what to do by the state. Fuck sake. We're queers, they've told us what to do all our lives. They allow prejudice against us to carry on without trying to educate the kids from the word go that being queer isn't wrong.

I say they sort out their equality issues first, tis a far more immediate concern than smoking or not.

amnesiac

12th September 2003, 02:37 PM

Beg to differ... look at how much smoking related illnesses impact upon and cost our healthcare system... VIVE L'AUTHORITARIANISME (Oh god, I'm turning into a fascist medic!) p

LeBaron

12th September 2003, 07:00 PM

Was listening to the Daily Moan Show on de wireless, brought to us by
Joe Duffy.

They had a crowd on giving out about some leaflet being distributed
in schools telling kids that, if and when they do start to sup the
Devils Buttermilk as my old friend Ian Paisley calls it, its
important to take a balanced aproach to it and avoid excessive or
binge drinking.

Not a bad thing you might think ?

Ah, but then again you are probably a normal healthy individual, and
therefore likley not to be a fascist, and therefore you are WRONG !

No, the mob on the Happy Duffy Show were up in arms that anyone
would even mention the existance of the aforesaid Buttermilk to
kids.
Drink is evil and is killing us was the core of the argument and must
be discouraged at every turn.

I'm telling ye lads ( and lassies, and indeed those with a foot in
both camps - if you will excuse the pun ), what these folk are after
at the end of the day ( Drink, Smoking, and indeed our God Given right
to be totaly aloof from what happens in the dark recesses of our
jollopies engines ) is TOTAL prohibition.

God save us, if they have thier way we will be turned into a nation
of Swedes ( the country not the vegitable , although on second
thoughts its the same thing ).

We will all end up smoking and drinking in our attics, a la
Anne Frank, and with the social skills of a 40w bulb.

God save Ireland

skysabove

12th September 2003, 07:37 PM

Recent events notwithstanding, Sweden is a model state of pluralism and liberalism. I don't think it would be a bad thing if we did become a little more like them.

LeBaron

12th September 2003, 09:37 PM

Well... I lived there for a year and a half and Holy God it was like watching paint dry, somehow I dont think we really want to transplant that to here, we have a spirit in our nature which they just do not.

And I agree with your sentiments re Anna Lind, very very sad

LeBaron

16th September 2003, 02:14 AM

Are we out of puff ?

odyssey_scot

16th September 2003, 11:30 AM

well..since this is a topic about ciggies
I seem to have become a chainsmoker in the past few weeks. Coincided with hectic work schedule (and my justification for taking a break every hour or so, was to go have a cigarette break).
I used never smoke at home in the flat, but now I'm lighting up the whole time.
Any ideas on how to cut back. I mean it seems a helluva lot harder now to cut down on ciggies, when I'm smoking so much more frequently than I used to

LeBaron

16th September 2003, 08:27 PM

Well...... I used to smoke a so many you would not think
that I had time to sleep ( thats another story I guess ) and I actualy gave up for nearly three years ( back again now, but three years was not so bad )

I did that with the help of a hypnotherapist who is based it Tuckey St called Joe Keaney ( Tel 4273575 ) I am NOT his agent ....I just looked his number up in de yella pages !

Honestly it did work for me and it was only a single 1 hour session which cost 40 quid and this mad tape that you played before hittin de sack ( SACK not sac ! )

He is well worth a try, I may have another go myself

amnesiac

17th September 2003, 01:52 PM

Speakign for a moment from a purely selfsih point of view, as a "social smoker" (i.e. I buy 20 Marlboro Lights when I'm pished) if there was an effectively enforced ban on smoking in bars and nightclubs I, and many like me, would never put the cancer sticks in our mouths.

LeBaron

19th September 2003, 12:29 PM

Anmesiac, Despite my "pro-smoking" stance throughout I also am gonna take the plunge in January and will get off them again.
I'm not sure what will be worse 'tho, the nicotine deprevation or looking at the smug grin on Michael Martins face as I suffer !

redbulljunkie

19th September 2003, 04:04 PM

It would be like that bit in father ted, where john calls to the door while ted's trying to give up the fags, takes a big puff, blows out a big cloud of smoke and written in the cloud of smoke is "lovely fags" [D]

Viruswriter

20th September 2003, 08:59 PM

look pubs you smoke in em a pint and a fag have always gone 2gether - even people who normally don't smoke, do when they're drinkin'

LeBaron

21st September 2003, 12:50 AM

In fairness Vwriter, I think that exactly the point the anti
opinion have.... ie. people who dont normally smoke are more or
less forced to )

KTS

21st September 2003, 03:14 AM

I've been following this thread since it began, and haven't posted until now simply because I couldn't decide whether I was for or against it. I still haven't COMPLETELY decided ... but I'm posting my thoughts.

I think smoking and drinking do go hand-in-hand, in most cases, and always have done. However, I do sympathise with non-smokers who would like a drink without being subjected to passive smoking.

I'm 22 now. I started smoking at 14. I quit for a year and a half a couple of years ago. And recently have been on and off them (read trying to quit).

I like smoking ... I like drinking ... I like doing both. Maybe Mr Martin (who I just found out is a smoker! Admirable or hypocritical?) should make all pubs invest in a smoking area that is well ventilated.

I don't know ... at least I know, the main pub I drink in (Loafers) has a beer garden so I'll be quite happy if I'm still a smoker when this ban comes in. Unless it's raining, of course!

LeBaron

21st September 2003, 12:04 PM

Hey KTS.... Hate to be the bearer of bad news but under the new rules we will not be allowrd even to smoke in open air beer gardens, as they are classified as part of the " workplace ".
This is especially crazy and even in the US they do allow it, provided the beer garden is not roofed over

KTS

21st September 2003, 04:20 PM

quoteOriginally posted by LeBaron
Hey KTS.... Hate to be the bearer of bad news but under the new rules we will not be allowrd even to smoke in open air beer gardens, as they are classified as part of the " workplace ".
This is especially crazy and even in the US they do allow it, provided the beer garden is not roofed over

Really? Oh my God ... [-s][[-(][-(][-((]

LeBaron

22nd September 2003, 01:13 AM

Sad, but true... I also heard that they might fit smoke detectors in de bogs, but dat could be a nasty rumour put around by Philip Morris

amnesiac

22nd September 2003, 11:03 AM

Apparently there's going to be a specail hotline!
OH the hilarity!
911, 911! There's a smoker, YES I SAID A SMOKER lighting up in the second cublicle in the ladies in Taboo Bar!
Will we get to make citizens arrests? And who do we go after... the owner, amnager, bar staff or smoker????

capo

22nd September 2003, 11:35 AM

Here's a beauty - if you drive a company car you will not be allowed to smoke in it (goes for trucks vans etc too obviously), because, yes, you've guessed it, they are part of the "workplace" !!

amnesiac

22nd September 2003, 11:36 AM

Does that mean if there's a rent boi in your bed you can't light up after sex?

KTS

22nd September 2003, 12:23 PM

quote
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by amnesiac

Apparently there's going to be a specail hotline!
OH the hilarity!
911, 911! There's a smoker, YES I SAID A SMOKER lighting up in the second cublicle in the ladies in Taboo Bar!
Will we get to make citizens arrests? And who do we go after... the owner, amnager, bar staff or smoker????

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

It's like what Lily Savage said once, you take out a gun in America, no one flinches, but if you take out a cig - everyone panics!!
quoteOriginally posted by Killing the Shadows
quoteOriginally posted by LeBaron
Hey KTS.... Hate to be the bearer of bad news but under the new rules we will not be allowrd even to smoke in open air beer gardens, as they are classified as part of the " workplace ".
This is especially crazy and even in the US they do allow it, provided the beer garden is not roofed over

Really? Oh my God ... [-s][[-(][-(][-((]

A friend told me this is only the case here to, or is going to be - if the beer garden is not roofed over, you can smoke there, but if it is you can't. Apparently Loafers are going to take the roof off their beer gardens. LeBaron, anyone, know if these two things are true?

amnesiac

22nd September 2003, 12:24 PM

Read the draft regulations for yourself Shadows

http//www.doh.ie/pdfdocs/tobreg.pdf
http//www.doh.ie/publications/smokeban.html

KTS

22nd September 2003, 12:25 PM

quoteOriginally posted by amnesiac
Read the draft regulations for yourself Shadows

http//www.doh.ie/pdfdocs/tobreg.pdf

Cheers thanks for the link! [;)]

LeBaron

22nd September 2003, 12:49 PM

Hey guys..... I am reading through the Bill ( Thanks for the Link Amnesiac ) and the first line that jumped out at me was " Smoke in relation to a tobacco product includes sniffing, chewing or sucking "..... MY GOD what exactly are they trying to ban.... THE MIND BOGGLES ... I will read on and keep y'all posted

LeBaron

22nd September 2003, 01:10 PM

Another thing that is interesting about the Bill is that it does not seem to be an offence for an individual to light up in the workplace ( ie Pub ) but rather the actual offence is for the Publican to permit it on his premises, with a fine of €1,900 and or 3 months on Spike.... Christ you would not get that for being caught with gear !

Just LOVE the concept of an unpaid police force, it will save us all a fortune on tax ( like hell it will )

LeBaron

22nd September 2003, 01:14 PM

Hate to serial post but my mind is racing..... the ban on chewing & sucking ( and I'm sure they are not takling about what I origanly thought they were talking about ) means that it is illegal to chew nicorette in a pub.... this man is off his tiny head !

LeBaron

22nd September 2003, 01:23 PM

Hey Shadows, read all the gumph... I do have a bit of legal training and regret to say that, by my interpretation of the regulation as opposed to the Bill itself, the ould beer garden is well out of order also.... He banned smoking in " the Licensed Premises " and de beer garden would, under the Licencing Acts, be part of dat !

KTS

24th September 2003, 12:10 PM

I agree, he's off his head, you can't even chew nicorette gum? Why? And he himself is a smoker I ask you is this admirable? Or hypocritical? What do people think?

RubberBoy

24th September 2003, 01:09 PM

quoteOriginally posted by KTS
I agree, he's off his head, you can't even chew nicorette gum? Why? And he himself is a smoker I ask you is this admirable? Or hypocritical? What do people think?

The whole public debate on this topic has had so many red herings thrown at it at times it has been dificult to tell whats going on, is it a health measure or the first steps in a fasicts lead coup.

But people WHERE HAS YOU CAN'T CHEW NICORETTE GUM come from?

chewing nicorette gum is not the same thing as chewing tabbacco

Viruswriter

24th September 2003, 01:41 PM

even chewing tabacoo cant cause passive smoking cancer, sure

LeBaron

25th September 2003, 12:06 PM

Hi Virus.... I guess that they think we are snoggin each other all the time, so if we were also to be chewin bacca at the same time then I suppose we could spread passive cancer !

solice

25th September 2003, 12:54 PM

i for one cant wait for the ban to be introduced. it kills me to say this but i would have to congratulate the government on this one.

i love going out with my friends, all sitting around and talking, laughing and having a good time. then there is that annoying man or woman that is directly across from you smoking. they take a puff and blow the smoke away. of course nine out of ten times they are completely oblivious to the fact that they are blowing the smoke directly into your face. it gets in your eyes,it makes your drink taste foul, it makes your clothes smell and it makes breathing in confined packed pubs even harder. i say roll on january 1st

but the one thing i dont understand about ye smokers. it baffels me really. when ye go out ye smoke. its a natural instinct for ye to sit down with a pint and light up. i can understand why people smoke after work, its relaxing for them (god knows why they cant go for a walk or something) but in a pub ye just smoke for the sake of smoking. i was in tribes the other night with a friend. she smoked 5 ciggarettes in the space of 2 hours. i asked her was she stressed. she said no. i asked her why are you smoking so. she said the she was smoking only because she wanted too. not because she needed too but because she wanted too. she wasnt having any cravings for them, she didnt feel the need too. but she did anyway. is this the case with all smokers or is she an exception?

think of all the money that ye would save if ye didnt smoke. think of all the money that ye would save if ye only smoked when ye actually felt the need too and not because ye had nothing better to do.

one of the main reasons for the ban is the health system. heart disease is the biggest killer in ireland. lung disease is not far behind. both of which are linked to smoking. the country is in debt to point of 2 billion allready. this will rise to 2.5 billion in january and a further 700 million by years end next year thanks to benchmarking. all that is outside of normal business for the country. the health system is one of the biggest drains on our economy. but it is the right of the people of ireland to demand a certain level of healthcare. so much money is being pumped into hospitals and there is nothing coming out.

one solution, get rid of the problem that is the biggest drain on the health system (and therefore also the exchequer) and that is to cut down the number of people smoking.

if we dont do that, the alternative is. pump more money into the hospitals. because we are in debt by years end next year to the tune of 3.2billion we cant afford that as things stand. so raise taxes across the board, income and excise and duties.
you are smoking, why should i be the one to pay for your healthcare. you are the one killing yourself, why should i be the one to fork out for your treatment.

its called being responsible.

the smoking ban is a good thing

LeBaron

26th September 2003, 03:21 PM

Sound logic... think of the money we could save if we also banned drink, or indeed how wealthier we would all ( well almost all ) be if we introduced compulsory euthanasia at 50

solice

28th September 2003, 08:22 PM

quoteOriginally posted by LeBaron
Sound logic... think of the money we could save if we also banned drink, or indeed how wealthier we would all ( well almost all ) be if we introduced compulsory euthanasia at 50

how did you go to compulsary euthanasia from smoking. the mind baffles.

LeBaron

28th September 2003, 11:06 PM

Hi So.... its the whole control thing

solice

28th September 2003, 11:44 PM

"its the whole control thing".

they are banning smoking in pubs, clubs, restraunts and other public venues. the reasons for this are self evident and have been already stated.

on other forums people give about the whole "nanny state". well come on. they brought in penalty points. now it is a great system (if the guards could actually implement it properly), road deaths are down. i consider that a success

cctv, is great. there should be more of it. streets being monitored and everything. being a member of a social minority we all the streets are not safe. cctv offer protection (i realise its not great) and makes prosecutions easier.

the one thing i dont like is the whole card of enslavment thing they have got going. the idea of mandatory id is laughable. disgusts me really.

i believe the whole "welles" idea of "big brother is watching you" is totally taken to the extreme by left wing radicals. the only place that welles belongs is on channel 4 with davina or on a farm with yer wan from ear to the ground.

"its the whole control thing", i dont get that

LeBaron

29th September 2003, 07:52 PM

Just heard that the Government has banned the tradition of giving city schools a half day on the occasion of a visit of the Lord Mayor..... where will this banning all end ?

solice

30th September 2003, 10:56 AM

there is a huge difference between schools at the mo in respect to how many days off they get. it can be as big as 10 days. uniformity must be introduced and cutting down on the number of half days is one way to do this. standardising the school system cant be thought of as a bad thing. it ensures equal oppertunities for all pupils.

and aswell, more than ever are both parents in families working. it is a logistical nightmare for parents of young kids when a half day comes.

LeBaron

30th September 2003, 11:15 AM

Oh come on So... Uniformity ? Whetever happened to the celebration of diversity ?

solice

30th September 2003, 11:24 AM

we are talking about education. is it unfair to grant one child a half day and one not.

quote Oh come on So... Uniformity ? Whetever happened to the celebration of diversity ?

you saw the word uniformity and you automatically thought, oppression and that is just plain sad. the whole idea behind the half days is not just an irish thing its an E.U. thing. the wish is to standardise all education systems in europe. bring them all onto a level playing field.

quotecelebration of diversity ?

school is a place of learning, not just in books but of growing up, understaning others and celebrating diversity in religions, cultural beliefs and traditions and in race, colour and sexuall orientation. giving people an increased oppertunity to learn all these different things is what its all about.

redbulljunkie

30th September 2003, 12:38 PM

give them all a half day is what I say. You learn feck all in primary school anyway, you should get a few days off to enjoy yourself. (you're only a child once).

amnesiac

30th September 2003, 03:33 PM

Again Ireland legislates strongly (if not ridiculoyusly) and enforces poorly. Governemnt funding for truant officers in the Greater dublin Area has all but dried up, so many kids who shoul;d be gettigna decent education aren't gettign any. Not that the Primary system in this country is in great health anyway.

LeBaron

4th October 2003, 12:28 PM

I see the de boys ( and girls ) in Kerry are givin it welly ! God I do love a good scrap

Yossarian

4th October 2003, 02:37 PM

Who'd have thought the Revolution would start in Kerry. shower of cute hoors. [;)] [p]

LeBaron

4th October 2003, 02:45 PM

Any money they declare an Independent Republic, with loads of air conditioning, and corner the market on boozy smokers ?

Slayer

5th October 2003, 01:54 AM

Feckin' eejits.

It's ridiculous, for christ's sake, this isn't about reducing freedom, this is about saving lives.

LeBaron

5th October 2003, 12:20 PM

Still.... I think I will book my holiday in Kerry

redbulljunkie

6th October 2003, 12:26 PM

Air conditioning argument is null and void by the way. They've found that air conditioning has no effect, it removes the cloud of smoke but leaves all the nasty carcinogens and stuff in the air.

solice

6th October 2003, 02:56 PM

smoking costs the country (and by the word country i mean taxpayers and by the word taxpayer i mean you and me) 5 million euro a day. thats alot of money. i wonder would the kerry vintners be so quick to vote no if they were forced (of course in a totally non forceful way) to foot this bill.

but slayer put it better than i ever could, its not about reducing freedom ITS ABOUT SAVING LIVES.

Yossarian

6th October 2003, 05:16 PM

quoteOriginally posted by redbulljunkie
Air conditioning argument is null and void by the way. They've found that air conditioning has no effect, it removes the cloud of smoke but leaves all the nasty carcinogens and stuff in the air.

That's so true. Those sort of systems don't work when working at optimum condition. Not to mention the sort of poorly maintained equipment that I imagine would be the case in reality.
I hope this idea is shelved soon. It would take some high class filters to get rid of all the nasties alright. a couple of HEPAs in series maybe...
I can't believe some groups insist that this is a fair compromise. And as for only banning smoking at the bar itself to protect staff, don't make me laugh. This is about the customer too ya know.

*Yossarina allies with the Slayer camp on this one*

LeBaron

6th October 2003, 06:11 PM

Still think I will book the holiday in Kerry )

LeBaron

6th October 2003, 06:54 PM

Possible Solution
CSolutiom

LeBaron

6th October 2003, 07:00 PM

Hey guys, how do I get de image up here ? The technology has failed me. Thanks

redbulljunkie

6th October 2003, 07:08 PM

quoteOriginally posted by Yossarian
That's so true. Those sort of systems don't work when working at optimum condition. Not to mention the sort of poorly maintained equipment that I imagine would be the case in reality.
I hope this idea is shelved soon. It would take some high class filters to get rid of all the nasties alright. a couple of HEPAs in series maybe...
I can't believe some groups insist that this is a fair compromise. And as for only banning smoking at the bar itself to protect staff, don't make me laugh. This is about the customer too ya know.

*Yossarina allies with the Slayer camp on this one*

Maybe they'd like to have those industrial chip plant air conditioners installed and all the non-smokers can walk around in bunny suits [p]