I do hate hypocrisy RBJ which is why somebody who rants about old biddies and homophobia and then shows the exact same kind of prejudice towards another minority group leaves me perplexed and angry. I can't say that I have many traveller friends here in Cork but I do at home. And yes there is a difference between homosexuals and travellers. Travellers have less access to education, are subject to greater levels of discrimination in the workplace, by the state and by Joe Public, have shorter life expectancies and won't be able to sing "it's raining euro, alleluia" when they don't get the funding damien suggested would result form the initial tvthree poll. How would you feel if somebody judged you by their gay neighbours?
OK. Let's get less personal. I've seen travellers denied service in gay bars. It completely bewilders me. Imagine if a black man were asked to leave a gay bar? It simply wouldn't happen. So can anybody justifythis for me? Is the gay community, with our own personal experience of prejudice, more or less discriminatory then the population as a whole?
Certain social groups display certain kinds of behaviour, that's just the way it is. Eg The Irish as a social group are drunken louts. Despite the millions of good people in this country and the fact that it's wrong to discriminate against someone for being Irish, we're still going to get violence on our streets every night. Same with English football fans who attend away matches. Just because there's a well-behaved father attending with his son who'll be unhappy with this view, doesn't mean that trouble won't break out. Same thing with travellers - traveller's weddings and the like are common places of trouble. It's a little different with gay people because we're not a typical social group in our own right, we grow up as part of other social groups and so take on the behaviour of those social groups. For example I'm gay, but I'm also a student so unfortunately I'll be classed as a drunken waster by a lot of people because that's the kind of image students have created for themselves. Social groups have a collective responsibility to behave in a positive way for the sake of their individual members.
huh. RBJ, you seem to have had personal experience of ONE Traveller family. Yeah, maybe THEY weren't the best of parents, maybe THEY were a whole lot of trouble.. and you're assuming ALL travellers are the same? Ya know, when I was in school I was friends with this guy right? And he was gay and we were friends, and then he came out (before me) found a new buncha friends and dropped me like a hotcake. So obviously all gay guys are unreliable fuckheads who'll screw their friends over the first chance they get.. right? Ya know, once I was living in this not-so-nice estate. And ya know, the family across the road were settled people. Not travellers. And one day in themiddle of the night they came in and stole everything we had. Obviously settled people are robbers then.. right?
Nobody can choose what social group they are born into, so is it justified to judge all members of said group by your own opinions of the group as a whole?
I just said it wasn't, I said that in each social group are genuinely nice people. But if you take a whole load of people from that particular social group by the law of averages you will get trouble. Like in lil miss pyxx's example of her not-so-nice estate. Do I call her a racist against the people in that estate. No. That estate had bad people and good people but because of the bad people that estate was one you wouldn't like to live in. Similarly because there are so many troublesome characters in the travelling community, the though t of a traveller family moving next door so someone is just as daunting a prospect as being forced to live in a bad area of the city. I'm not racist against all of them, when dealing with people on individual basis I give everyone the same treatment.
Same thing happened to me with the gay friend who came out before me by the way. It does suck (going way off topic here).
Actually I never said anything against the people in that estate. I was pointing out that you CAN'T make assumptions about a group of people because fo the actions of one family. Most of the other people we knew living there were really nice. Those people weren't. Because they were fucked up people, not because they lived in blablabla estate.There are some pretty screwed up people in all walks of life. There's a friend of mine who's family are really loaded and whose mother is an obsessive compulsive who doesn't let anyoen int he house cook pasta for fear of the boiling water overflowing. next time I meet a loaded lady, am I gonna think she's more likely to have OCD? nope. Obviously you <i>don't</i> give people the same treatment on an individual basis. Because if a traveller family DID move next door to you, you would automatically be prejudiced against them. You'd hear about them moving in and think "oh god no, not THIS again".
Yeah I probably would. But the area's gone to shit these days anyway and my brother is probably the worst of the lot so it wouldn't make much of a difference these days. Racist against myself now am I? Maybe I'm not giving myself fair treatment for being from the area...
uhm.. I have no idea where you're from, and your comment there made no sense. Ya know, it's not exactly unprecedented for people whove' experienced discrimiination will end up discriminating themselves. Actually, it's well-documented. So from what you're saying, where you live has "gone to shit". And this somehow excuses your racist attitudes above.. why? Because, really, there's no justification for racism. Not even saying "I have xxxx preconception about Group X, but hey, if I met someone from them and they proved themselves as not being xxxx, then I'd have no problem with them." Can't you see that that is a classically discriminatory attitude?
it's pretty much disciminatory yes, but I'm saying that people have a right to learn from experience. I don't look forward to returning to the area where I lived because the people there are scum. Not everyone there is scum, but a lot of them are scum and for that reason I don't want to go back. Like the article in another thread about Fermoy people. Can you blame that person for not wanting to go back to Fermoy even though not everyone from Fermoy is bad. Similary certain social groups will make life hell for their members through their collective actions. Okay so maybe you can class it as discrimination but sometimes discrimination exists for a reason.
That's kind of similar to the way certain people assume all gay men are bulemic, pill-popping vacuous Kylie loving Queens and all lesbians are angry, rude, wallet-chain wearing, alcoholic Beamish drinkers. Yes there is a significant number of travellers who do cause trouble for residents, the Gardai. Leaving to oneside the fact that this is in part due to social exclusion and discrimination anyway, I still think every traveller you meet deserves to be judged as a human being first. (S)he deserves the same respect, chanmces and opportunities you would afford a settled person.
I must say that I agree in part with what Redbulljunkie is saying. Clearly he's had negative experiences of travellers, and in that he's not alone. I base my opinions on not just one experience, or one family, but a whole load of families and extended families that every year arrive in our small seaside town here and cause absolute destruction. And as someone who owns a business here, pays business rates and has to pay a commercial mortgage on my land, I object to others being allowed to arrive on my land and I have to get a court order, which starts at around £1,000stg to have them evicted. On top of this there are the other costs - loss and damage to our machinery, the big clean up after they leave (no public money available here) and the whole threatening way they behave towards me, my neigbours and everyone else who dares tackle them. This year we haven't had them here because all local businesses have clubbed together and effectively sealed off their entry points. So where did they go instead - some of them to the public park, some in the local housing estates camped in the green areas and others simply occupied our public seafront carparks. And are they going to leave? No. Not until the council have first assessed their needs and so on. It's all part of travellers rights. Now I'm all for rights as well you know. But I don't expect free anything. I don't expect to be able to take myself, partner, dog and family and camp in your front garden, or your business premises, or your council car park. But this is what's happening in areas everywhere. And it really does make me angry that anyone who speaks about having their property destroyed or unfairly occupied are classed as racists. Or that we're discriminatory. Well we're not. There's a lot of us, gay, straight whatever who are absolutely fed up of paying fortunes to deal with people who couldn't give one shite about anyone else but themselves. It's absolutely disgusting the way these people believe they can occupy others land, estates and public parks because they're travellers. While were us non travellers to as much as park our cars in a public car park without paying we've slapped with high-price penalty tickets and or have our vehcicles towed away. Our local planning regulations forbid us to park our vehicles overnight on our local roads so I have to shell out in excess of £14k per anum for a yard to park them. On top of this there's insurance, business rates etc - And what do I get for abiding by the law - the travellers and their supporters who see it as their natural right for them to occupy my property. To-date, I can confirm that I haven't bunches of gay men and women doing the same thing. It's about time that travellers who demand respect from us gave us the same in return.
quoteOriginally posted by amnesiac won't be able to sing "it's raining euro, alleluia" when they don't get the funding damien suggested would result form the initial tvthree poll. Go check EU and Government funding for Travellers Groups and you'll note how much is spent on Travellers every yeat. Its quite an amount if you are going by percentage population.
As for travellers parking themselves in your property etc.. I very much doubt they would do that if decent facilities were provided to them by the government. Which they're not.
Well lil miss pyx, there are a certain number of travellers who despite the efforts of local authorities to find suitable land for halting sites insist on trespassing and destroying private property, oftne places of great beauty. That's not to say I feel that the Government and the authorities, as a WHOLE are doing enough for travellers... but there will always be some, as in any community, who cuase huge hassle. My point is that not all travellers should be judged by these few.
Hell yeah! I'm not in the least bit disputing that there are some travellers who do do things like that. If I was, then.. I'd be kindarefusing to see what is happening. i just don't like the idea of blaming travellers for what is.. For one thing, the actions of some, not all. For another thing, often related to their alienation from everyday life/society. And of course, the facilities that are provided are often.. not in the least bit suitable. I'm not saying that anyone has a right to trespass on someone else's land and destroy it. Meep. No. I just think that all of the problem doesn't lie originally with Travellers. If anyone was put through what they have to deal with all the time, I'm sure they'd react the same.
